fu2
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Post by fu2 on May 20, 2008 16:13:19 GMT -5
Well, as I'm sure all of you and your mothers have heard, DnD 4th edition comes out this August. Wooo. So I'm sure none of what I'm about to say means two shits or a fuck, but, what the hell, I'm bored.
So, anyways, according to enworld.org, and a couple other sites, the following is the info that I could get, before I started getting internet trouble.
From Wizards Presents: Races & Classes: Unified progression of defense, BAB and saves. A 10th level character will have +5 of those (thus +0.5 / level). Even at 1st level classes can significantly alter the base value. Class abilities modify them further. Characters no longer have different rates of progression for attack bonuses and saving throws based on their class—these all progress at the same rate now. Every 10th level character will have a +5 bonus to AC, to hit, and all three saves, though class abilities, feats and ability scores will influence these. Presumably, Defenders will have more class abilities that grant attack bonuses to make them the best combatants. Every character at first level possesses certain boosts to these traits as Star Wars Saga Edition characters do (so a fighter probably starts with a +2 Fortitude save bonus, etc.).
All classes will have resource management aspects. Resource Management: All classes have defined roles – a fighter is never penalized for being a “tank”, a “healer” is never penalized for curing, a mage is never penalized for “magic missiling”. More options, not restrictions. Everyone will be a constructive, useful member of the party, no accidental lame characters. (source). Less feat trees, easier for characters to swap out abilities much easier and try different things out. Each level from 1 – 30 each character will have interesting character development options to choose (source). Wisdom helps with power selection. More on martial abilities: "A skilled halberdier can hack a foe with his weapon’s blade and spin around to smash a second foe with the haft. A fighter with a longsword disarms her foe with a flick of her wrist, while a battle hungry axeman cleaves through shields, armor, and bone." "Rogues have a similar relationship with skills. A nimble rogue dives through the air to tumble past an ogre, while a charismatic one tricks an enemy into looking away just before she delivers a killing blow with her dagger. Just as fighters do more with weapons than any other character, rogues push skills beyond the limits that constrain other PCs."
Personalizing and specializing your character is amped up, it’s one of the most powerful things about 4th edition. If you’re a barbarian, you’re not a frenzied berserker. If you’re a barbarian, you’re a barbarian for your entire career. The frenzied berserker and bear warrior will be at the very end (source). David Noonan -- "Plus I had a nice, meaty design assignment to work on. Suffice it to say that I'm working on a significant customization choice your character makes midway through his or her career--and it's a choice that'll evolve over, say, ten levels or so. More on those when I get 'em written." There will be rules akin to the retraining rules in PHBII - they don't like the idea of people planning their careers from level 1 to 30.
And believe me when I say that there is more. LOOOOOOTS more. But I put the link up there, so, yeah, copy and paste and check it out yourselves.
And, yeah, while this is kinda interesting, and I'll admit, looks good on paper. You gotta pardon me for being a little skeptical. I mean, after all, I have been let down by overly ambitious system changes before. (*cough* NWN2*cough)
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fu2
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Post by fu2 on May 20, 2008 16:30:45 GMT -5
I was reading further, and this caught my eye. I figured it was pretty damn big.
Fills the "Defender" role, along with the fighter. Mentioned that paladins can be of other alignments other than lawful good. On paladin mounts appearing from nowhere: "No". Mentioned in a playtest report. "Divine Power" ability mentioned, directed at enemies. Smite mentioned. Reference to the paladin's healing ability. From Wizards Presents: Races & Classes: Still have smite ability but there are more types of smites (different form of attacks). Paladins and fighters are both defenders, but paladins rely on divine powers. There are evil paladins.
That's right, no longer do you have to go with a lame PRC to play the "Dark Knight" fallen paladin. It seems that it's simply an alignment change. Might take some of the um... "Oomph" out of becoming an evil paladin, though.
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fu2
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Post by fu2 on Jul 6, 2008 13:01:55 GMT -5
Okay, I kinda messed up on release dates.... 4E FR campaign comes out in August, 4E is already out. I'm sure you all figured it out by now. I took the liberty of buying the 4E player's handbook.
It actually doesn't look too bad, except for a few things that have left me, oh, how shall I put this delicately...
SPEECHLESS WITH RAGE
They completely fucked up tieflings, I mean, seriously, what fucking RETARD decided that humans with fucking bigass horns and 4-5 foot long tails should have +2 charisma?
They also fucked rogues up, though not as bad as above. Rogues are stuck with using hand crossbows, daggers, short swords, shuriken, and slings. As their attacks will not work with any other weapon. Well, they can use katars and rapiers, but, well... I'll get to that later....
They fucked up the stat system. Well, more accurately, they fucked up the point-buy system that EVERY FUCKING GAME IS GONNA USE. It takes 2 points to move a stat from 13 to 14 now, instead of just 1 (You'd be surprised how much of a difference that really makes). However, to be fair, you get more stat points as you level up. At levels 4, 8, 14, 18, 24, and 28 you can increase 2 stats by 1 point, while at levels 11 and 21, all your stats go up by one, so I can forgive this, I guess.
And here's the last one, a big doozy, actually. Take everything you know about the weapons and armors of DnD, and toss it out a window (Which, I hope would be like a brick, and lands on the head of a small child, but I digress). Rapiers are now "Superior" weapons. Superior weapons are the new name for "Exotic" weapons. Greatswords do 1d10 damage now (But, give you more accuracy) and armor has been broken down into 6 types, 2 categories. Cloth, Leather, and Hide armors are Light armor. You can add your DEX or INT modifier to them, whichever's higher, while Chain, Scale, and Plate are Heavy, which means you add nothing.
Other than those things, the system doesn't look too bad. Hell, from what I heard, they even got the monster races so damn balanced that you can roll one of them up for your character, and it wouldn't be overpowered and out of place. I'll tell more as I get more books.
Anyone else got anything to add?
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Post by Dia on Jul 6, 2008 17:45:31 GMT -5
Yes.
Boooooo
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Madcat
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Post by Madcat on Jul 7, 2008 3:11:48 GMT -5
Female Tieflings are hot though.
...
...No pun intended.
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fu2
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Post by fu2 on Jul 9, 2008 7:07:04 GMT -5
Just something about a chick with a tail that turns you on, eh Madcat?
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Madcat
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Post by Madcat on Jul 9, 2008 11:22:29 GMT -5
I like it kinky.
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fu2
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Post by fu2 on Jul 22, 2008 12:53:14 GMT -5
Boy oh boy oh boy.
Yep, WoTC has officially managed to ruin DnD. That is, if I'm not mistaken. Which, I hope to God that I am, and that WoTC just didn't print the actual complete rules of multiclassing in the Player's Handbook. Or that they're playing some sick, sick joke...
My favorite aspect of DnD, multiclassing, is completely fucking ruined.
Basically, it's more like dual-classing, since you can only get one other class. Well, to be more accurate, it's actually partial classing and feat-wasting, since you don't get the complete benefits of having a full level in the class.
Basically, it works like this. We'll use the rogue for example, since it's my favorite class. I play my rogue, and wanna multiclass as a fighter, but, instead of just simply taking a fighter level when I level up, I am only allowed to take this gay thing called a "multiclass feat". Which means, I get partial fighter benefits. For instance, a fighter gets to choose one-handed or two-handed weapons, he gets a permanent +1 bonus with his weapon choice, a fighter can mark the target he attacks (marking is a pretty good ability, but I'm not going into detail), he gets the usual proficiencies (heavy armor, martial weapons), and a nifty ability where the fighter adds his WIS modifier to his attack bonus when using Opportunity Attacks. With that lame-ass feat, I can pick one or two-handed weapons, and once per encounter I can add a +1 bonus to 1 attack, and mark 1 target, I also to pick 1 skill from the fighter's list to be trained in and can pursue the fighter paragon path, like the kensei, or pit fighter (it's a shame, since skills are done sooooo much better this time around). No proficiencies, none of the other abilities. In fact, to add insult to injury, if I wanna trade some rogue powers for some fighter ones, I have to waste even more feats (up to 3). Not like I'd want any of those damn fighter attacks or powers anyways, since my stats are made for dur-de-dur, a fucking Rogue! Oh, and as if wasting 4 fucking feats wasn't enough, instead of getting a paragon path (which, they are kinda cool), I can trade my basic rogue powers (the at-will ones) for the fighter basic powers (which again, I am not built for), and instead of gettting useful paragon abilities, I instead get some crappy fighter ones that are actually a lower level than I really am. All this wonderful crap, for the low-low price of 4 feats! Plus, if I wanna, I dunno, use heavy armor, or different weapons, I still gotta waste more feats for the proficiencies.
So, here's the breakdown, I waste a lot of feats, get less abilities, and I still don't get any fucking weapon and armor proficiencies for free.
Jeez, I thought the whole purpose of multiclassing was so you can get some abilities of another class without having to use up your feats.
So basically, here's what it boils down to, WoTC had the opportunity to make a really awesome system, in fact, if it wasn't for this multiclassing crap, 4th Edition would rock tits. Unfortunately, now it's degraded to being nothing more than an MMO for your tabletop. How fucking ironic. Instead of making multiclassing better, they completely crippled it. Instead of letting players have varied characters, now, 1 player's rogue is gonna be just the same as another's rogue, since the classes are even more limited than they were in 3rd.
Of course, I'm hoping I'm wrong. The PH said that multiclass feats were the complete rules for multiclassing, I'm hoping it's just a fucking typo. If I can still multiclass like I used to, then 4th Edition would be (in my opinion at least) the best thing for DnD since, well, 3.5 edition. If I'm right, then fuck this gay-ass system, and all the games that use it.
I'd highly advise you download the Core Books off of Limewire if you want more information (Fuck paying these cocksuckers).
Once again, as always, anybody else wanna join me in my rant? Either way, I've said my piece and I'm done.
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Post by Dia on Jul 22, 2008 15:25:49 GMT -5
That sounds about right, it's more or less how multiclassing worked in 2.0. Most D&D fans I'm told disliked 3.0 and 3.5, so them going back to a 2.0 rule isn't surprising.
I only know this from having played Baldur's Gate and BG2, which went by 2.0 rules, but in all my time playing that game, I NEVER multi-classed, it just made your main class weaker and gave no real notable benefit from the secondary.
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fu2
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Post by fu2 on Sept 3, 2008 19:03:01 GMT -5
Well damn.... It's very rare that I have to eat crow, and make a rebuttal to my own efforts of spreading venom, but even someone as vindictive as I sometimes acts hasty.
Before I get into it, there is one thing I must say...
In Baldur's Gate 2, multiclassing only sucked for the nonhumans. For humans, it kicked ass if done right. Just pick a kit (An alternate version of said class) and then dual-class at levels 10-12. IE Kensai (fighter)/mages, Swashbuckler(thief)/fighters, and Stalker(ranger)/clerics were pretty awesome. For nonhumans, avoid multiclassing at all costs. But that's a waaaaaaaaaaaay outdated version of DnD...
Anyways, a buddy of mine convinced me to play 4e recently and, well... (You'd be surprised with how many nerds join the Marines, and more surprised at how many end up in the Infantry, it's like the Corps wants to put you in the place where you will most likely get your ass kicked.) It was cool. Basically here's the highlights...
First off, we changed a few minor rules, the multiclassing ones. Instead of needing 3 feats to swap your character powers, you only need one, and instead of having to wait until level 11 to swap an at-will power, you can swap it any time you want. Okay, so far so good. By level 5, my character actually felt pretty badass, like he could actually fuck someone up (Yeah, good luck getting that feeling from a 3e character).
So, here's what I got. First off, custom race (slightly). I took a tiefling, and gave him +2 STR and DEX, instead of INT and CHA (Ironic note: rogues don't need INT anymore), and I got rid of the lame tiefling ability where you get +1 attack and damage against foes reduced to half health (If you got that far, why would you need the bonus?) and changed low-light vision to darkvision.
Got a ranger, and we played until level 8. Here's the highlights. Feats: proficiency feats: chain, scale, and bastard sword. two-weapon style, grants toughness (+1 hp per 2 levels), can use one-handed weapons in offhand (Basically, it meant I could dual-wield bastard swords), multiclass: warlock (Which, thievery is a class skill for Warlocks now. Thievery is the skill used for disarming traps, picking locks, and picking pockets.) and Power Swap. Trained in these skills: Stealth, Dungeoneering, Acrobatics, Perception, Endurance, Thievery.
Basically, here's what I ended up with: A badass. He sneaks, he picks locks, finds and disarms traps, because he uses heavy armor, he can tank in a pinch, he does high damage, not as much as a rogue or a warlock, but he has far more staying power than both, and as if that wasn't enough, he can do a little magic. I traded one of my close-combat moves for Eldritch blast, which does 1d10 damage, same as a long bow. I can also swap some of my utility moves for the warlock ones that are better for stealth (rangers focus more on mobility than outright sneaking).
In the end, he was badass, but not overpowered. I also made other characters using our custom rules and got the same results. Even with fighter multiclass for my ranger (It had more synergy, though, since both a fighter and dual-wielding ranger rely on strength, while my Eldritch Blast relied on either CHA or CON, I chose CON).
So, yeah, it's not very often that I have to admit that I'm wrong, especially because I -always- take the pessimistic route, which is rarely wrong, but, well, every once in a long time, when the planets are aligned just right, change doesn't make things suck.
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Madcat
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Post by Madcat on Sept 3, 2008 20:26:57 GMT -5
Tried reading the above post, but there was a big pile of Nerd covering the message, sorry man.
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Post by Dia on Sept 4, 2008 13:47:34 GMT -5
MadCat, after 4+ years of playing Dungeons and Dragons every night, albeit on a computer instead of PnP, can nerdiness ever -really- be in your way? ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) As for the changes, FU2... doesn't sound bad, but eh, I still prefer the old system.
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fu2
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Post by fu2 on Sept 4, 2008 13:57:26 GMT -5
Yeah, I know, it is kinda hard to switch after getting used to the old shit. However, unless a whole shitload of disgruntled players make some kinda group, and start a riot in front of WOTC HQ, I'm pretty sure most new games are gonna use it. So, might as well learn to love it.
And for the record, I still hate Drizzt.
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Post by Dia on Sept 6, 2008 17:20:28 GMT -5
Saw this and couldn't resist. ![](http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii22/rattrap2474/4EDD.jpg)
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Post by kennedi on Sept 10, 2008 10:32:25 GMT -5
I hope to find a new pnp group here in New Jersey, will see where to buy the books, unless anyone knows of cheap online ways? What I hate about new editions are the struggle to convert existing characters, or do a campaign wipe because they no longer work.
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